Safety and Buildings Plumbers Council Meeting Summaries

Council Member Attendance: Lynita Docken - Present; Dave Jones - Present; Scott Hamilton.

Visitors:  Tom Gasperetti, Ken Blomberg, Steven Shew, Ann Gryphan, Tim Elverman, Dajen Bohacek, Jeff Beiriger

Staff: Jim Quast

1.  Welcome and Review of Agenda.  Members and visitors were welcomed, everyone introduced themselves and the agenda was reviewed with no changes.

2.  Review May 25, 2005 Meeting Summary.  The meeting summary from the May 25, 2005 Council meeting was reviewed and approved as written.

3.  Election of Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson.  The Statutes require the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson at the first Council meeting of each year.  The Statutes also indicate that Lynita Docken is the Council secretary.  Dave was elected as chairperson, and Scott was elected as vice-chairperson.
 
4.  Division Update.
The department is in the process of updating the Wisconsin commercial building code.  One of the proposals the department is evaluating is to recognize NFPA13D type sprinkler systems to serve townhouse occupancies.  The proposal would also recognize the utilization of multi-purpose piping systems for these occupancies.

5.  Administrative Forfeiture Draft. 
The council recommended that forfeiture amounts be increased as follows:
Comm 5.12(2)(a)1: first offense - $1,000 and second offense - $1,500
Comm 5.12(2)(a)4. third and subsequent offenses - $2,000
Comm 5.12(2)(a)6. first offense - $1,000 and second offense - $1,500
Comm 5.12(2)(a)7. second offense - $1,000 and third and subsequent offenses - $2,000

It was pointed out that the second “not” under s. Comm 5.12(2)(a)5. should be eliminated, otherwise the language does not make logical sense.

Staff will research whether the term “superintending” under s. Comm 5.12(2)(a)6. needs further defining in order to clarify the activity involved.

The council felt that by rule a person with a plumbing background should be involved with an appeal of forfeiture is made to the division administrator to provide technical expertise.

It was suggested that the rules include a statement indicating a timeframe for referral to the Attorney General when a forfeiture payment has not been made.

7.  Adjournment.  The meeting was adjourned at 12:00 p.m.  Another meeting was not scheduled at this time. 

Wednesday, May 25, 2005, 10 a.m., Room 3C, Thompson Commerce Center, 201 West Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Member Attendance: Lynita Docken Present, Dave Jones Present, Don Wiedoff Present

Visitors: Harry Kreuser, Ken Blomberg, Brian Brown, Pat Casey, Tim Elverman, Scott Giese, Gregory Addie

Staff: Bob DuPont, Jim Quast, Ron Acker

1. Welcome and Review of Agenda. Members and visitors were welcomed, everyone introduced themselves and the agenda was reviewed with no changes.

2. Review March 9, 2004 Meeting Summary. The meeting summary from the March 9, 2004 Council meeting was reviewed and approved as written.

3. Election of Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson. The Statutes require the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson at the first Council meeting of each year. The Statutes also indicate that Lynita Docken is the Council secretary. Dave Jones is the current chairperson and Don Wiedoff is the current vice-chairperson. Dave suggested that Don take over as chairperson, and Don agreed. Therefore, Don was elected as chairperson, and Dave was elected as vice-chairperson.
4. Division Update.
-- Administrator. Kimberly Walker, Safety and Buildings Division Administrator, is leaving the department to become administrator of the Division of Energy in the Department of Administration

-- Budget. At the department’s request, the Governor has included a proposal in the budget bill to change the license period for plumbers and sprinkler fitters from 2 years to 4 years. Fees would be adjusted accordingly, with the rule changes projected to be effective in 2007. The Governor’s budget bill would also eliminate 20 positions in the Safety and Buildings Division.

-- Comm 5. The Comm 5 rule changes dealing with the requirement for the master plumber-restricted appliance to take the multipurpose piping course are currently at legislative committee review.

-- Stop work/stop use rules. The proposed rules relating to stop work and stop use procedures are being reviewed for approval to announce public hearing. The rules apply to department staff only.

-- Administrative forfeiture. The department is working on proposed legislation for the authority to administer and enforce rules for administrative forfeiture.

5. Installation of Water Meters. Copies were distributed of section 145.06, Stats., and the article from the December 2004 Wisconsin Construction Codes Report (WCCR) dealing with replacement of water meters. A lengthy discussion took place relating to who can replace a water meter as well as who can install a water meter relative to the plumber license exemptions under section 145.06 (4), Stats. Under section 145.06 (4)(d), Stats., the department has considered a water meter to be a control device and therefore its repair and replacement is exempt from the licensing requirement. Plumbing industry representatives disagree with that department interpretation. They noted that water meters are specifically mentioned under paragraph (f) but not under paragraph (d).

Water utility representatives indicated that water utilities have been removing, testing and replacing water meters in accordance with PSC rules for years with no problems. For larger meters, they call a plumber to do the removal and installation. The PSC and Commerce are working together relative to what is considered plumbing and who can perform certain activities. Whether or not a water utility is public is determined by the number of people served and not by ownership of the utility.

It was pointed out that section 145.05, Stats., requires 1st, 2nd and 3rd class cities to have a plumbing supervisor to oversee all plumbing, including new, alterations and repairs. This requirement still applies regardless of the license exemption and needs to be enforced. It was also pointed out that utilities are responsible for providing safe drinking water to customers and are required to have certified operators. From a municipal cost viewpoint, additional regulations such as requiring more licensed people adds more costs that municipalities can’t handle.

It was suggested that the department publish information indicating that the December 2004 WCCR article needs to be revisited because some people feel that the department’s interpretation of paragraph (d) does not properly correspond to the requirements of paragraph (f). It was commented that a statutes change could be proposed that would address the size of water meters that could be installed and replaced by water utilities. The department will work on a proposal that is acceptable to all parties involved for now and for the long term.

6. Other Licensing Issues.
-- Advanced Training Program. This program is still being worked on and needs to be implemented.
-- Exams. The department will work on updating the exams.

7. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned at 12 p.m. Another meeting was not scheduled at this time.

Tuesday, March 9, 2004, 10 a.m., Room 3C, Thompson Commerce Center, 201 West Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin

Member Attendance: Lynita Docken Present; Dave Jones Present; Don Wiedoff Present

Visitors: Bob Riberich, Larry Vance

Staff: Jim Quast, Ron Acker

1. Welcome and Review of Agenda. Members and visitors were welcomed, and the agenda was reviewed with no changes.

2. Review February 26, 2003 Meeting Summary. The meeting summary from the February 26, 2003 Council meeting was reviewed and approved as written.

3. Election of Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson. The Statutes require the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson at the first Council meeting of each year. The Statutes also indicate that Lynita Docken is the Council secretary. Don Wiedoff is the current chairperson and Dave Jones is the current vice-chairperson. Don suggested that Dave take over as chairperson, and Dave agreed. Therefore, Dave was elected as chairperson, and Don was elected as vice-chairperson.

4. Division Update. The status of the following code projects was reported to the Council:
-- Comm 5. The legislative committee review should be completed soon, and the Department may then adopt the proposed rules. After the public hearing on the proposed rules, the Department removed the proposal regarding multipurpose piping systems; thus the current rule requiring a previously-licensed master plumber to complete an educational course for installing multipurpose piping systems will remain as is. Most credentials are being changed to 4-year terms, except where terms are specified by statute. The new provisions for commercial plumbing inspectors include a grandfather clause that expires in one year from the proposed rules effective date of August 1, 2004.

-- Plumbing Code. The Department is preparing a draft of proposed rules for public hearings which consists of numerous changes in the plumbing code. The main focus of the changes is stormwater management. Public hearings are targeted for May.

-- Fiscal Issues. The Department is still not filling vacant positions created by retirements or job changes. There are no vacant plumbing plan review positions at this time.

-- Administration and Enforcement of Codes. A scope statement for developing rules for stop work/stop use procedures was recently approved for starting rule drafting. Initial thoughts are that these procedures would be used for 3 situations: When an imminent risk to safety and health exists, when work is started without a required permit, and when licensed-required work is performed by a non-licensed person. The rules would include an appeal process. The Department is also looking into developing rules for administrative forfeiture or citation authority, but that will need a statute change before rules could be proposed.

5. Licensing Exam Resource Material. The council discussed what materials could be allowed to be used by persons taking the license exams. It was noted that the Department has not been consistent regarding materials allowed for the various licensing exams administered by the Department. The Department has decided to standardize the allowed materials and allow any handbooks and commentaries across the various exam categories. This is because these materials are available to anyone working on the job. Laptop computers and copies of the exam are not allowed. The council expressed support of this practice.

6. Advanced Plumbing Education for Licensing Exams. Lynita distributed and reviewed copies of information related to an education enhancement program entitled "Advanced Plumbing Certificate". The Career Path Flowchart showed that there are four proposed "educational" paths for journeyman plumbers, each ending with a different type of exam to acquire the master plumber license. By statute, a person can not take the master exam until the person has obtained the required experience. The educational program will be administered by the Department of Workforce Development Bureau of Apprenticeship Standards, and it is proposed to start in the Fall of this year. Council comments were in support of this concept, including the development of corresponding licensing exams. It was noted that the intent of the program is to raise the level of professionalism for the plumbing industry. It was further noted that it is not the intent to eliminate any requirements for on-the-job training.

7. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned. Another meeting was not scheduled at this time. The Department may be in contact with the council regarding development of the proposed rules for stop work/stop use procedures.

Plumbers Council Meeting Summary

Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 Time: 10:00 a.m.

Location: Room 4A, Thompson Commerce Center, 201 West Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Member Attendance:
Lynita Docken Present
Dave Jones Present
Don Wiedoff Present

Visitors: Chris Schoenbeck

Staff: Bob DuPont, Jim Quast, Ron Acker

1. Welcome and Review of Agenda. Jim Quast opened the meeting and welcomed the Council. Dave Jones was welcomed as a new member on the Council, replacing Joe Treml.

2. Review of November 3, 2000 Meeting Summary. The meeting summary from the November 3, 2000 Council meeting was accepted as written.

3. Election of Chairperson and Vice-chairperson. The Statutes require the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson at the first Council meeting of each year. The Statutes also indicate that Lynita Docken is the Council secretary. Don Wiedoff was the past chairperson and Joe Treml was the past vice-chairperson. Don was re-elected as chairperson, and Dave was elected as vice-chairperson.

4. Division Update. The status of the following code projects was reported to the Council:

Plumbing Code. Copies of the final rule draft for the changes in the plumbing code were distributed. These changes have been in development for about 3 years, and were recently adopted by the Department. The projected effective date is May 1, 2003.

POWTS Code. Public hearings on the POWTS code fix-up package were recently held. The Department is currently analyzing the public hearing comments and is in the process of preparing the final draft of rules for legislative committee review.

At this time, Bob DuPont briefed the Council on some ideas being considered by the Department relating to inspection requirements for all types of buildings. The Department is considering how to create a more effective and efficient inspection program for all building elements for commercial buildings. Bob noted that the Insurance Services Organization recommends 15 building inspections be conducted on a new building. Currently in the uniform dwelling code program, the Department licenses inspection agencies to do the required inspections and certifies builders under the Contractors Financial Responsibility Certification. Bob distributed and reviewed 3 tables entitled "State Level Policy and Operations Requirements by Building Type and Building Element". There was a table for Commercial Buildings, Multi-Family Dwellings, and One- and Two-Family Dwellings. Bob noted that people have questioned why homes require many inspections, but commercial buildings do not. The Department is also considering to require competency of inspectors for commercial buildings. Council members noted that these proposals would add costs to construction, but it would also add value and protect owners.

5. Proposed Comm 5 Revisions. Copies of a draft of proposed changes in chapter Comm 5 were distributed. The changes related to plumbing were reviewed as follows.

SECTIONS 4 and 5. These changes relate to late renewal of a license, certification or registration. The time that a renewal is considered late is changed from one term to 5 years. These changes are patterned after the Department of Regulation and Licensing requirements for renewal.

SECTION 20. These changes codify the requirements for obtaining a license if a person holds an equivalent license from another state or municipality, or has equivalent practical experience. This new rule requires the petition for variance process to be used to establish the equivalency.

SECTION 21. This change removes the requirement to complete a special course in order to install a multipurpose piping system for persons who obtained their license prior to January 1, 2002. This change reflects that a plumber has the statutory right to install such systems and is responsible for the installations to be code-compliant. In addition, the education has been integrated in the plumbing apprenticeship program.

SECTION 23. These changes remove the requirements for the specific educational course work as a qualification to write the journeyman plumber-restricted exams. The exams will be changed to be more comprehensive.

No additional changes were recommended by the Council.

6. License Exam Changes. It was reported that the following changes will be made on the exams for licenses: Increasing the breadth of the journeyman-restricted exam, offering exam preparation courses, and issuing sample exams. It was noted that exams will always be on the current code. Council members questioned the need for adding more exam sites, such as Madison, because the Waukesha site is very busy and fills up quickly.

7. Results of Survey on Responsibilities. Lynita distributed and reviewed copies of information related to an education enhancement opportunity entitled "Advanced Plumbing Credential (Certificate)". There are 4 tracks that a person can choose from during the period from the Journey level to the Master level: Business, Technical/Mechanical, Technical/Environmental, Communication/Education. The intent of this certificate is to create a program to raise the level of professionalism for plumbers. This program is not a Commerce license program, but rather an extension of the apprenticeship program in the Department of Workforce Development. It is proposed to be implemented in the future.

8. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned. Another meeting was not scheduled at this time. The Department will send Council members a copy of the hearing package of proposed changes in chapter Comm 5 when the hearing draft of proposed rules is approved.

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