Safety and Buildings Division Plumbing Advisory Code Council Meeting Summaries

Meeting summaries are considered drafts until approved by council members at a subsequent meeting.
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Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., Middleton Fire Station, 7600 University Ave., Middleton, Wisconsin

Council Member Attendance: Tom Breu - Present; Patrick Casey, Chair - P; Charles Hernandez - P; Dennis Hoffman - P; Hallet Jenkins - P; Dave Jones - P; Gary Kowalke - Absent; Jeff Kuhn - P; Gene Shumann - P; Joseph Zoulek - P.

Department of Safety and Professional Services Staff:  Tom Braun, Lynita Docken, Jim Miller, Norma McReynolds, Jerry Thompson.

Guests:  Jack Beuschel, Studor, Inc., Richard Husar, City of Milwaukee

Welcome, introductions, and review agenda
Chair Pat Casey welcomed everyone to the March 9, 2010, meeting of the Plumbing Advisory Code Council (PACC). The meeting’s agenda was reviewed and accepted without changes.

Pat introduced two newly appointed PACC members:  Dennis Hoffman, a retired plumbing inspector from Mequon. Dennis was nominated by the American Society of Engineering - Wisconsin Chapter (ASE) to replace Rudolf Petrowitsch who resigned in early February because of family obligations.  Charles Hernandez, a technical specialist with the Plumbing Manufacturers Institute (PMI). Charles was nominated by PMI to replace Dave Viola who no longer works at PMI. 

Review progress report from previous meeting
The council reviewed and accepted the progress report from its January 6, 2010, meeting.

Public comment period
Jack Beuschel, of Studor Inc. which is a distributer of air admittance valves (AAV), discussed Wisconsin’s approval relating to his company’s product.  Beuschel reviewed the history: Studor began the approval process for its valve in 1996 or 1997 and was issued an alternate approval January 1, 2000.  He told the council that since then the company has sold more than 175,000 valves in Wisconsin and is unaware of any health hazards or problems with installation.

Currently, because of alleged failures of the valve during a pre-test, Beushel said the department is considering: 1) not renewing the alternate approval of the valve; or 2) adopting a code change that prohibits the use of the valve by requiring AAVs to vent outside the building.

Beuschel said an Administrative Law Judge, after a hearing, ruled in favor of Studor, Inc., in October, 2008.  He questioned the state’s pre-test procedure and indicated that Studor receives only a couple of returned valves each month.  Council members shared their experiences relating to faulty valves and asked if there were any tests for installed valves. 

According to Beuschel, the Studor valve is accredited by several national associations, and he asked the council why Wisconsin has not adopted the national plumbing code.  Beuschel also raised concern about the economic impact that the proposed rule change relating to venting outside the building will have on small and large plumbing businesses.

The council reiterated that although economics are a concern, its mission is to develop code to protect the health of the citizens of the state. The council also pointed out that national standards are minimum standards and any state can raise those standards and improve upon them. 

Lynita Docken will forward the Administrative Law Judge decision to the council.  She noted that the state’s data was disallowed at the hearing; however, since the hearing the department has collected additional data concerning the failure rate of the valves.
Division updates and review of last year’s code change

Department Update: Lynita Docken and Jim Miller updated Council members on the following,
Letter to the Wisconsin Natural Resources Board re: NR 810-811 package:  The PACC’s January 22, 2010, letter to the Wisconsin Natural Resources Board relating to NR 810-811 was distributed.  The council’s letter asked the NR Board to reinstate the cross connection surveyor certification for commercial properties into the NR810-811 rule package.  Also distributed was the NR Board’s February 22, 2010, response indicating that it had received the council’s letter.

Hal Jenkins reported that the final draft of NR 810-811 is due out in March and the cross connection control surveyor will not be in it because: 1) Commerce doesn’t have a credential; and 2) several organizations, including the municipalities, are opposing the test based on training costs.

Discussion ensued. The council recommended including the cross connection surveyor credential in the current plumbing code proposal package. The department will continue to work with Department of Natural Resources (DNR) to reinstate the requirement for a cross connection surveyor to conduct the required survey in the NR 810-811 rule package. 

MOU with DNR on water treatment: The MOU between DNR and Commerce is in effect. Commerce will conduct the plan review and the inspection of transient non-community and private wells and DNR will monitor maintenance of the treatment systems.
Thermal System Insulation Council (2009 Wisconsin Act 16): Working with the Governor’s Appointment Secretary, the department solicited and received several nominations for positions on the new Thermal System Insulation Council.  The governor’s office is reviewing the applications and will be finalizing appointments in April.

AAV proposed rule package:  The proposed rule package is being discussed internally.  The Wisconsin Uniform Plumbing Code (Comm 82.20) sets an expiration date for systems that receive departmental approval.  The code does not allow for automatic renewals of approved systems.  Because the department wants safe and reliable system that does not threaten the health of the citizens of the state, it is working with the manufacturer to get new test data or to consider doing a research project as part of an experimental system approval.

Exams and licensing task group: The group, Scott Hamilton, Dave Jones and Lynita Docken, is making revisions to the plumbing exams.  Staff is developing exam questions for the group to review.

Watersense:  The department has joined WaterSense, an U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) partnership program that sets water efficiency standards and oversees the certification of water efficient products. The program sponsors the “Fix a Leak Week,” and Tom Braun has been asked to speak on National Public Radio.

Plumbing definition statute change:  The legislature is changing the definition of plumbing and of minor repair.  The statute changes may be approved by late March.

Animal water rules:  The department is developing a Q&A to post on the Web relating to plumbing in food processing plants.  Basically, plumbing is for direct human use or consumption.  The question is who regulates indirect consumption?  For example, when the water is piped to the chicken and arsenic goes into the egg?  Secondary or indirect consumption is regulated by the Department of Health Services or the Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection.

Discuss licensing, continuing education and other credentialing issues
The document entitled “2010 Draft Code Revision Proposals for Discussion” distributed at the January 6, 2010, PACC meeting contained a recommendation for mandatory continuing education related to code revisions for plumbing licensure renewal.  For example, the suggested language for a master plumber follows:   “The renewal of a license as a master plumber may be contingent upon the applicant’s attendance at a specific course when the department deems that attendance is necessary in order to provide information related to a code revision.”

Lynita reported that the recommendation was not included in the current plumbing code fix-up package because continuing education is not just an issue for plumbing.  The department is considering reviewing continuing education for several credentials and developing a proposed rule package for all.  Another option, she said, would be to keep the proposed mandatory language in the current plumbing fix-up rule package and make plumbing a pilot project. 

During the ensuing discussion, council members asked if mandatory attendance could be enforced by the department.  Because plumbing is a leader in the credentialing field, the council recommended moving ahead with a “pilot” mandatory code education requirement and including language in the current plumbing fix-up rule package.

While discussing licensing issues, the council asked if it was time to look more closely at the various plumbing licenses and ways to improve the credentials and exam.  One suggestion was to divide the exam into a basic exam and a specialty test.

Other topics
Well heads:  Hal Jenkins asked staff to develop and post a Q&A about well heads.

Soap proportioners failures in ecolabs:  Soap proportioners have an internal air gap and there have been some failures of the rubber membrane in Washington and other states. Although there have not been any failures in Wisconsin, Jerry Thompson is rescinding approval, and is proposing a new standard in the current plumbing code fix-up package.

High flow fixture:  Jeff Kuhn asked staff to research what constitutes a high flow fixture. 

Code fix-ups
Norma McReynolds, code consultant, distributed an 18-page, working draft of the proposed code fix-ups. The council reviewed the document and made recommendations.  Next steps include finalizing the proposed code package and setting a hearing date.  The council will continue to provide feedback as the package moves through the rule promulgation process.
The meeting was adjourned.

Next meeting:  No date was set for the next council meeting.  The c ouncil will meet again after the public hearing. Lynita asked council members to contact her at lynita.docken@wisconsin.gov with comments on the proposed plumbing code draft.

January 6, 2010, 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., Third Floor Conference Room, #3B, Thompson  Commerce Center,  201 W. Washington Ave., Madison, Wisconsin

Council Members: Arthur J. Biesek - A; Tom Breu - P; Patrick Casey - P; Hallet Jenkins - P; Dave Jones - P; Gary Kowalke - A; Jeff Kuhn - P; Rudolf Petrowitsch - A; Gene Shumann - P; David Viola - A; and Joseph Zoulek - P.

Department Staff: Tom Braun, Lynita Docken, Jim Miller, Norma McReynolds and Jerry Thompson.

Guests: Jeff Boldt, KJWW Engineering/WHEA; Thomas Cottreau, City of Milwaukee; Scott Hamilton, Local 75; Jeff Hellenbrand, WOSW/WOA; Richard Husar, City of Milwaukee; Matthew Marcinak, International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials; Dan Schmidt, Badgerland Trading Co.

Welcome, introductions, and review agenda
Lynita Docken welcomed everyone, and asked the guests to introduce themselves. The Council reviewed the agenda and accepted it with minor changes.

Review progress report from previous meeting

The Council reviewed and accepted the progress report from its October 15, 2009, meeting.

During a brief discussion about cross connection control surveys, Hallet Jenkins announced that the Milwaukee cross connection control manual was online and available at http://www.miklwaukee.gov/DNSplumbing. He suggested putting a link to the manual on the Safety and Buildings web site. 

Elect new chair and co-chair

On MOTION (Jones/Kuhn) Pat Casey was nominated as chair. On MOTION (Kuhn/Jones) Hallet Jenkins was nominated as co-chair. On MOTION (Kuhn/Zoulek) the nominations for chair and co-chair were closed by a unanimous vote.

The Council elected Pat as chair and Hal as co-chair.

Public comment period

As the newly elected chair, Pat asked for comments from the floor. The Council members agreed to accept comments during the general discussion of each agenda item.

Division updates and review of last year’s code change

Lynita and Jim Miller updated Council members on the following:

• Fee revisions – Effective January 1, 2010, the cross connection control assembly registration fee was reduced from $200 to $20 for online registration and to $30 for paper registration. If the assembly is located in a health care facility, the registration fee was reduced from $200 to $170 and covers plan review and approval. In addition, a new fee has been set for each test result on each cross connection control assembly. Effective January 1, 2010, that fee is also $20 if reported online and $30 if reported by paper.

• MOU with DNR on water treatment –  Another fee that is changing relates to plan submittal for treatment devices of non-potable water. The Department of Natural Resources determines if a well can be used for water supply – such as a private or non-community well – away from a public water supply. Through a MOU with DNR, Commerce will conduct the plan review and the inspection and then turn the well over to DNR for maintenance.

• Great Lakes Compact – According to the compact, “Commerce needs to develop rules for using grey water.” Staff pointed out that this has been done, and congratulated the Council for being forward-thinking and including “reuse of grey water” in the state’s plumbing code.

• CCC test reporting – The department hopes to have the cross connection control test reporting database and online system up and running within a week. Meanwhile, the paper application can be used. Staff has set four dates for training throughout the state. Future plans for the database include an “illegal installation” report.

• Forfeitures for plumbing – The department has issued 11 forfeitures for plumbing, and two have involved court hearings. The funds collected through the forfeiture system goes to the state’s school fund.

• MOU with DNR on wells – Currently, the department’s MOU with the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) is under discussion. The department hopes to expand licensing requirements for well drillers and pump installers.

• NR 810-811 package –The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) did not include in NR 810-811 final rule draft a requirement for a cross connection surveyor to conduct the required survey. This requirement had been in DNR’s original draft proposal, and Commerce was developing a surveyor certification. Commerce staff attended the public hearings on NR 810-811, and pointed to the need for a certified, licensed surveyor to perform the survey and submit a report.

On MOTION (Jenkins/Zoulek) the Council will contact the Natural Resources Board and recommend that the cross connection surveyor certification for commercial properties be reinstated into the NR810-811 rule package. The motion passed unanimously.

The Council also recommended that the continuing education requirement for the cross connection control tester be increased and included in the “fix-up” plumbing code package.

• Thermal system insulation (2009 Wisconsin Act 16) – Act 16, which requires licensure for installation of insulation on piping, has an exemption for minor repair for plumbers when working on piping repairs. The Thermal System Insulation Council will be appointed by the Governor, and interested Council members were invited to apply for the plumbing, heating or cooling contractor seat.

• Exams and licensing task group – Scott Hamilton, Dave Jones and Lynita Docken have met to update the plumbing exams. The challenge is to eliminate the foldout drawings and make the exams more challenging. The exams will be expanded to include the many aspects now involved in the scope of plumbing.

• Plan review – Because plan review is still slow for the Safety and Buildings Division, staff continues to see reductions in hours. Classes are continuing, however, turnout has been disappointing.

Feedback from Council members on how things are going

Lynita asked the Council for feedback on how things are going. Council members and guests commended the department on its outstanding communication process. During the ensuing discussion, they listed the following challenges and other issues:

• Government’s policy of lapsing fees needs to be addressed. The industry is supplying the funds (fees) to support Commerce, which in turn, should be using those funds to support the industry and enforce the codes.

• Continuing education is important, and Commerce should consider working with the various associations to provide the necessary classes to keep the plumbers abreast of changing technology. Training small contractors on how to submit plumbing plans and providing education to journeymen and master plumbers about current technology and other issues (i.e., water calculations, grease trap sizing, backflow prevention, etc.) would help the industry move forward.

• Everyone – the built industry and Commerce – are victims of the recession. Diversification is essential. The economy is putting the legitimate contractors to the test.

• Trying to generate more revenue by changing the code (i.e., requiring 11 fixtures instead of 16 for plan review) is a disservice to the owner who is paying for the plan review. What will happen when work does ramp back up? Will Commerce be ready? The code should look at other options and align with the designs of today and the future and not be based on generating revenue.

• Contractors and Commerce should “think out of the box,” and find new ways to spur on things. Commerce needs to look at the innovations and changes in the industry (i.e., tankless water heaters and other water saving technology) and work to implement those changes in the code.

• Increase public awareness about the importance of using licensed plumbers. For example, it is illegal for some “hospitals” to have their own “maintenance” people doing plumbing.

• Wisconsin has an excellent plumbing code, but there are advantages to becoming more in line with the national codes such as the IPC or UPC. (Not everyone, however, was in favor of adopting a national code.)

• Several code fix-ups were recommended including reinstating the “index” for the Wisconsin Plumbing Code which would improve access.

AAV package

The air admittance valve (AAV) rule package is set to be discussed with the Secretary’s Office. The proposal is the same as what was shared with the Council at its October 15, 2009, meeting. The department is looking for a safe and reliable product that is not a threat to the health of the citizens of the state. Discussion ensued, and the Council recommended including an implementation timeline into the code.

MPP presentation

Don Hough made a PowerPoint presentation on multi-purpose piping (MPP) systems and distributed a handout. He recommended creating a subdivision paragraph for section Comm 82.40 (3) (e) as follows:

Comm 82.40 (3) (e) f. The design of piping serving plumbing fixtures and fire sprinklers for more than two dwellings shall be based on a minimum of the plumbing demand served by the piping and the requirements contained in NFPA 13D for the number of fire sprinklers included in the design.

During the ensuing discussion, Council members expressed concerns that plumbing is borrowing from the building code and about insurance coverage for the proposed rule change. It was pointed out that the NFPA 13D system requirement was a compromise with the Building Contractors Association. The consensus of the Council was that the recommendation needs more research.

Tankless water heaters

After distributing a handout to Council members, Jerry Thompson made a PowerPoint presentation about tankless water heaters. He concluded that the tankless and tank water heater are similar when converted to a 10-minute time period, and recommended developing an alternate approval system for tankless heaters for a couple of years.

On MOTION (Kuhn/Shumann) the Council approved proceeding with an alternate approval system for tankless water heaters.

Code fix-ups

Tom Braun distributed a handout that listed eight possible code fix-ups including creating definitions for at-risk water and non-domestic water. On MOTION (Breu/Jenkins) the Council accepted Tom’s recommended changes.

The Council will provide feedback and continue the discussion of proposed code updates at the next meeting.

Set next meeting date and adjourn

The meeting was adjourned.

Next meeting: The next meeting of the Plumbing Advisory Code Council is set for all day Tuesday, February 23, 2010 (rescheduled to Tuesday, March 9) in Madison, WI.

October 15, 2009, 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., City of Madison Fire Station #11, 4011 Morgan Way, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Members: Arthur J. Biesek - A; Thomas Boehnen - P; Tom Breu - P; Patrick Casey - P; Hallet Jenkins - P; Dave Jones - P; Gary Kowalke - E; Jeff Kuhn - P; Rudolf Petrowitsch - P; Gene Shumann - P; David Viola - A; and Joseph Zoulek - E.

Department Staff: Tom Braun, Lynita Docken, Jim Miller, Norma McReynolds and Jerry Thompson.

Guests: Dajen Bohacek, Plumbing Mechanical Contractors, Milwaukee; Rick Davison, Stickler & Assoc., Bob DuPont, Regulatory Guidance and Design, LLC; Scott Hamilton, Local 75; Jeff Hellenbrand, WOSW/WOA; Richard Husar, City of Milwaukee; Matthew Marcinak, International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials; Dan Schmidt, Badgerland Trading Co.

Welcome, introductions, and review agenda

Tom Boehenan opened the meeting of the Plumbing Advisory Code Council. Tom announced he retired January 1, 2009, and that the American Society of Plumbing Engineers – Wisconsin appointed Tom Breu to replace him on the Council as its representative. At the request of the Council, Tom agreed to continue chairing the meeting. The Council will elect a new chair and co-chair at its next meeting.

The Council reviewed the agenda and accepted it as written.

Review progress report from previous meeting

The Council reviewed and accepted the progress report from its April 17, 2008, meeting.

Public comment period

It was agreed that comments would be accepted during the general discussion of each agenda item.

Division updates

Lynita Docken thanked Council members Pat Casey and Gene Shumann for helping with some “fix-ups” in the plumbing code. Depending on staff availability, the fix-up package is set to begin during winter 2010.

Lynita and Jim Miller used a PowerPoint presentation to update the Council members on legislative and division activity. The presentation covered the following:

- Information on MOAs on pump installing and water treatment devices for health-related contaminants: The memorandum of agreement (MOA) between the department and the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) is in its draft stages. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has a list of approved devices, and Commerce is developing an approved list on its web site.

- State Statute 145 and Senate Bill 267: Council members Jeff Kuhn and Pat Casey testified at the Senate October 9, 2009, in favor of Senate Bill 267 which clarifies ss 145. The Plumbing Advisory Code Council and Local 75 were involved in the development of the legislation which is moving forward without opposition. The plumbing code already addresses potable and non-potable water and now the statutes are endorsing this concept.

- D&V Handbook and MPP Handbook: A sample of the new MPP design book and CD were distributed, and Council members were asked to sign up for a copy. The Drain and Vent (D&V) is also available and Council members will receive a copy.

- Building Contractor Registration: The BCR rules became effective October 1, 2009, and copies of the revised Comm 5 were distributed to the Council. Any person or business (plumbers) engaged in construction or a component of construction must hold a Building Contractor Registration (BCR) issued by the department. General contractors will be asking subcontractors for their BCR identification number.

The 2009-2010 Budget Bill includes legislation that delegates broader authority including a penalty for not registering. Before developing code, the Department is researching forfeiture systems such as the one used in plumbing. It was pointed out that administrative fines do not go to the Department; they go to the state school fund.

Discussion ensued with Council members pointing out how well regulated the plumbing industry is, and suggesting that plumbing should be exempt from BCR. Concern was raised about plumbing fees being lapsed and used for state governmental shortfalls instead of supporting the industry that paid the fee.

- Cross connection control (CCC) survey and surveyor: DNR is holding hearings throughout October. Also, the department formed a workgroup to draft proposed rules relating to CCC surveyors for the Council to review.

- Great Lakes Compact: The compact contains a requirement for a statewide conservation plan, and the Department of Natural Resources is including “reuse.” Communities close to the Great Lakes and Missouri River may have strict conservation requirements. The requirements being proposed may require code changes.

- AAV report: Thirty percent of the vents failed the initial tests. Wisconsin is the only state in the nation testing the devices and collecting data. The department is re-evaluating the data and has drafted a proposed rule change for the Council to review.

- Exams and licensing council: Three people – Dave Jones, Scott Hamilton and Lynita Docken – will update the exams this winter. Exam additions will include new items in the code and redrawing several of the illustrations.

- Staff changes: Because of state budget constraints, department staff are taking furloughs plus there will be layoffs in the Division of Safety and Buildings. Several departmental employees have retired and their positions not filled. Council members expressed concern about $10.1 million in fee-generated income lapsing or going to other agencies, and subsequently creating a shortfall in S&B which is being resolved with staff layoffs.

- Continuing education courses: About 37 continuing education classes have been developed and will be held statewide. Classes include POWTS, MPP, 2009 code changes, and miscellaneous subject matter such as branch interval loading.

- UDC enforcement-contract cancellation: Effective December 1, 2009, commercial building inspectors will conduct inspections of UDC buildings. Because of the budget deficit, the department rescinded 17 inspection contracts that were created to enforce the Home Safety Act of 2003. The work will go to S&B inspectors who are receiving additional training and will need to pass the UDC exam.

During the ensuing discussion, the Council noted the following:

• The inspection system is a cooperative effort between the industry and the enforcing state department. Inspectors should be adequately trained to enforce the code.
• Commerce is one of the only departments that is supposedly self-funded. Fees should stay within the agency to provide services and support to the businesses that were accessed.
• The lapsing of fees has become political: The department secretary and division administrator are governor appointees. During the Thompson administration public safety – commerce, corrections, etc. – were not lapsed. This has not been the case during the Doyle administration.

Members will work with their various organizations and associations to develop a plan that would protect the fee-generated money from lapse.

Cross connection control surveyor proposed code revision

Lynita distributed the draft of the proposed cross connection control (CCC) surveyor rules, and asked the Council to review it. A workgroup met several times to develop the rule draft that proposes a cross connection control surveyor certification.

A letter from Sean Cleary, chairman of the Cross Connection Control Technical Committee for the American Society of Sanitary Engineering, in support of the CCC certification was accepted. 

The Council discussed the CCC rule draft, and recommended the following changes:

• Remove “control” from the title of the new certification so it becomes a cross connection surveyor. “Control” designates the device and is what the tester checks while the surveyor will look at the system.
• Update the definitions relating to cross connection control.
• Add licensed professional engineer and licensed designer or certified plumbing designer as people also qualified to take the cross connection surveyor course.

Drain and vent proposed code revision

Lynita distributed the draft proposal revising Comm 82.31 relating to vents, venting systems and vent terminals. Council members reviewed the rule proposal that requires venting systems to terminate outside the building and restricts the use of AAV. The department is proposing the rule because of the 15% to 30% failure rate of the devices which could pose a threat to the health of the citizens of the state by allowing gases from sewer piping to enter a habitable space.

Plan and product review proposed code revision

Council members received the latest draft of the proposed plan and product review code revision, and were asked to look at Table 82.20-1 and Table 82.20-2. Both tables have been amended to reduce the threshold from 16 to 11 plumbing fixtures in determining when plan submittal would be required.

Staff explained that this is a “supply and demand decision,” and S&B currently has the capacity to review additional plans. Council members reiterated that an effort needs to be made to keep the money generated by the additional plan reviews in the division.

Product standard updates

Jerry Thompson led a discussion about adopting national IPC standards 1070, 1069 and 1055. During the ensuing discussion, the Council revisited standards for tankless water heater. Council members asked staff to continue its research on standards, and bring recommendations to the next Council meeting.

Other topics

Pat Casey asked about the progress of Clearinghouse Rule No. 109-050, Chapters Comm 2 and 82 relating to permit to operate, registration and filing fees, and specifically Comm 5.99 pertaining to cross connection control testing fees. Jim explained the cross connection control testing system and the changes that Comm 5.99 codifies.

Set next meeting date and adjourn

The meeting was adjourned.

Next meeting: The next meeting of the Plumbing Advisory Code Council is set for Tuesday, December 15, 2009, (rescheduled to Wednesday, January 6, 2010) from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. in the Third Floor Conference Room #3B of the Thompson Commerce Center at 201 West Washington Ave., Madison, WI.

April 17, 2008, 9:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Thompson Bldg, Room 3C, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Members Attendance:  Arthur J. Biesek - P; Thomas Boehnen - P; Patrick Casey - P; Hallet Jenkins - P; Dave Jones - A; Gary Kowalke - A; Jeff Kuhn - P; Rudolf Petrowitsch - P; Gene Shumann - P; David Viola - A; Joseph Zoulek - P.

S&B Staff Attendance:  Tom Braun, Lynita Docken, Jim Miller, Todd Taylor, Jerry Thompson.

Other Attendance: Jeff Beiriger, Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors; Tim Elverman, Local 75, Matthew Marcinak, International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials.
 
Council meeting summaries from April 2 and January 9 were approved.  There were no "Division Updates" from S&B staff.

The council did a section by section review of 44 pages of draft code language.  The resulting decisions are reflected in draft proposals for public hearing on July 8, 2008, in Madison.  The hearing draft language and hearing announcement are on the S&B WebSite, http://dsps.wi.gov/SB/SB-CodeDevelopment.html#Comm81845

Lynita Docken explained the possible steps in the code change process.
- Council considerations
- Drafting proposals by S&B staff
- Council considerations
- Drafting proposals by S&B staff
- Public Hearing (July 8, 2008)
- Consideration of hearing comments by S&B staff
- Possible council meeting to finalize draft proposals to go to the state legislature for committee considerations.   Hope is for this to happen before September 1, 2008.

Meeting adjourned.

April 2, 2008, 9:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Thompson Bldg, rm 3B, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Members Attendance:  Arthur J. Biesek - P; Thomas Boehnen - P; Patrick Casey - P; Hallet Jenkins - P; Dave Jones - P; Gary Kowalke - A; Jeff Kuhn - P; Rudolf Petrowitsch - A; Gene Shumann - A; David Viola - A; Joseph Zoulek - P.

S&B Staff Attendance:  Lynita Docken, Don Hough, Bruce Meiners, Jim Miller, Todd Taylor, Bob DuPont, Debra Miller (Commerce).

Other Attendance:  Dajen Bohacek, Plumbing Mechanical and Sheet Metals Contractors; Jeff Beiriger, Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors; Alan Thomas, Cat Iron Soil Pipe Institute; Tom Cottreau, City of Milwaukee; Richard Husar, City of Milwaukee; Jeff Boldt, Wisconsin Healthcare Engineering Assoc.; Wes Zastrow, Local 75.

The January 9 council meeting summary was not approved.  It will be considered at the next meeting, which was set for April 17 in Madison.

Division Update
-  Lynita Docken said a public hearing could be scheduled in May if the council feels the proposed revision package is ready.
- She noted a planned report concerning plumbing product aspects of the code revisions was being postponed until the April 17 meeting due to S&B staff turnover.
- A Soil and Stormwater Code Advisory Council will start meeting in May to considered erosion control and post construction stormwater issues.
- The Bio-Safety Laboratory subgroup has met.  Discussions of the topic have not reached the point of code language proposals
- S&B and the Department of Natural Resources are working on a Memorandum of Understanding concerning stormwater issues.
- Jim Miller said printing of administrative forfeiture forms and staff training has delayed the plumbing licensing-violation citation deployment.  A draft table was given to the council members outlining code references related to the forfeiture system.  Meeting attendees requested some sort of public reports in the future concerning citations issued.  S&B will maintain a computer database of citations.
- Bruce Meiners has been hired as a plumbing plan reviewer in La Crosse.  Jerry Thompson is now in Madison as a Plumbing Product Evaluator, the position formerly held by Mike Beckwith.  Beckwith has returned for a short period of time to provide training as a limited term employee.
- Air Admittance Valves: Jim Miller said proposed changes to the approval status of air admittance values have been postponed because a manufacturer challenged the process.  AAV are still approved as an alternate system and can be installed when meeting all stipulations.  A hearing before an administrative law judge is scheduled for July.  Council members requested ample notice of any further actions on the subject.
- Jeff Beiringer requested S&B keep itself aware of and involved in legislation concerning the proposed Great Lakes Water Compact.
- Council members expressed concern over March 1 Commercial Building Code changes that affected waterless hand washing in some public buildings.  Bob DuPont said the issue is being reconsidered and may be changed during upcoming commercial  building code work.
- DuPont reported on recent law changes that will affect S&B:
    - Statewide licensing of electricians, with a 5-year phase-in required.
    - The Wisconsin prohibition on outdoor heating sidewalks was rescinded.
    -  A superinsulation requirement for one- and two-family dwellings heated with electricity was repealed.
    - Rules were tightened against conflicts of interest among county employees involved in POWTS programs.
    -Carbon monoxide detectors in certain buildings were mandated, as was development of a detector inspection system.
- DuPont reviewed possible plumbing plan review changes in Comm 2, part of the first consideration of fee changes since 2000.  Because law requires different S&B programs to (for the most part) be supported by their own fees, increases will vary across programs.  Plumbing license fees cannot be increased, so the need to pay for S&B plumbing programs over the next four years will be supported by an average 26 percent proposed increase in plan review fees.  A public hearing on various S&B fee code language is tentatively planned for June.

Multipurpose Piping Systems
Don Hough presented information to the council on MPPs, including a recommendation that Wisconsin adopt the recent 2007 NFPA 13D standard.  He also suggested consideration of the definition of what is part of an MPP.  Lynita Docken will bring specific code language to the council for the April 17 meeting.

More discussion of draft code language revisions in Comm 80-86 was begun. Discussion is to continue at the April 17 meeting, along with a review of miscellaneous code change revisions.

January 9, 2008, 9:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center, 201 W. Washington, Room 3C, Madison, Wisconsin
   
Council Member Attendance           
Art Biesek - League of WI Municipalities (Present), Thomas Boehnen - Amer. Society of Plumbing Engineers (Chair) (Present), Patrick Casey - WI State AFL-CIO (Present), Hallet Jenkins - City of Milwaukee (Present), Dave Jones - Technical Advisor (Excused), Gary Kowalke - PHCC/MPA WI Assoc. (Absent), Jeff Kuhn - Plbg., Mech., & Sheet Metal Contractors Alliance (Present), Rudolph Petrowitsch - Amer. Society of Sanitary Engineers, WI Chapter (Excused), Gene Shumann - Shumann & Assoc. (Present), David Viola - Plbg. Manufacturers Institute (Absent), Joseph Zoulek - PHCC/MPA WI Assoc. (Present)   
       
Alternates and Guest Attemdance:   
Jeff Rasmussen – M.P. Oshkosh, Tom Cottreau – City of Milwaukee, Richard Husan – City of Milwaukee, Alan Thomas – CISPI, Bill Woehlke – AB & I Foundry, Bob Smith – Deery-Pardue & Associates, Jeff Beiriger – Plumbing, Heating, Cooling Contractors Association

Department of Safety and Professional Services Staff:
Docken, Lynita – Program Development Bureau, Amanda Berry – Program Development Bureau, Jim Miller – Integrated Services Bureau    P

Welcome, Introductions and Review of Agenda: 
Thomas Boehnen opened the meeting by welcoming the Council.  He reviewed the agenda for the meeting.

Review Progress Report: 
Thomas Boehnen reviewed the progress report from the December 5, 2007 meeting.  The Council accepted the report as written.

Division Updates: 
Lynita Docken updated the members on legislative and Division activity:
•    Mike Beckwith, a product reviewer for Safety & Buildings, will be retiring at the end of January.  A replacement has not yet been hired.
•    There is a new plumbing plan reviewer in LaCrosse.
•    Forfeiture and tracer wire rules have passed through the legislature and are ready for adoption.  Although there is not an adoption date, agency staff have been preparing and training for the new code to go into effect. 
•    A statement of scope is currently being written regarding certification for cross connection surveyors, and a certification requirement for pool contractors.

Discuss code revision suggestions for plumbing products and adoption of standard revisions: 
Mike Beckwith discussed the 2007 update to standards in the code changes.  He explained that the State of Wisconsin adopts parts of multiple codes.  Codes are updated as needed or as soon as possible after the new editions of these standards are released.  Some of the changes from previously-adopted standards include:
•    The term ballcock has been changed to anti-siphon fill valve.
•    The cast iron standards will be updated and the CISPI standards, which are currently in the code will be included in this update.
•    Water heater drain valves standard has been withdrawn, but they still must meet general material and pressure requirements, which are located under 84.30 (4) and (5).

Lynita Docken and Jim Miller discussed the following proposed code changes:
•    Comm 82.31 (3) (b) is not proposed to be changed to require a 3” sewer vent for manufactured homes because they are regulated by the federal government.
•    Comm 82.30 (11) (f) 2. is proposed to   be changed to codify the allowance for the corporation cock and dresser coupling to be eliminated for pressurized sewers.  Lynita Docken will return with modifications to the current code language.
•     A note is proposed to be added to Comm 81.01 which will provide definitions for parking structures.  Definitions are already included in the building code.
•    Comm 82.33 (8) is proposed to  not be changed to expand the receptor choices to include the riser of any receptor.  Currently the riser of a floor drain, laundry tray and kitchen sink trap are all permitted to be the receptor of an indirect receptor.
•    1 ¼” cleanout size is proposed to serve 1 ¼” pipe and would be included in Table 82.35.
•    In Comm 82.30 (10) (a) 1, the term sewage is proposed to replace the term wastewater.
•    In Table 82.30-3, 1 1/2” building drain is proposed to be added to the column “Pipe Diameter”.

Council discussion of miscellaneous issues:
Jeff Beiriger presented an issue to the Council concerning the statute proposal concerning how to define the term “plumbing”.  Currently, plumbing is used in a variety of ways: a verb, an adjective, and a noun.  There was a request to consider using plumbing as a noun, and replacing the other types of usage with different words.

Set next meeting adjourn:  
The next PACC meeting is scheduled for:
February 6, 2008, 9 a.m. - 2:30 p.m., 
Thompson Commerce Center, Room 3C,
201 W. Washington, Ave., Madison, Wisconsin.

Another meeting is scheduled for:
April 2, 2008 at 9 a.m. - 2:30 p.m.,
Thompson Commerce Center, Room 3B,
201 W. Washington, Ave.,
Madison, Wisconsin.

[These minutes are subject to approval at a future meeting of the Council.]

Wednesday, December 5, 2007, 9:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.

Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center, Third Floor Conference Room #3B, 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison, Wisconsin

COUNCIL MEMBER ATTENDANCE:
Art Biesek (Excused), Thomas Boehnen (Present), Patrick Casey (Present), Hallet Jenkins    (Absent), Gary Kowalke (Absent), Jeff Kuhn (Absent), Rudolph Petrowitsch (Excused), Gene Shumann    (Present), David Viola (Absent), Joseph Zoulek (Present)

VISITORS:
Scott Hamilton, Local 75; Matthew Marciniak, IAPMO; Loretta Trapp, Clack Corporation; Dan Bartz, Kohler Co.; Phil Schrieber, Kohler Co.; Victor Hines, Jr., Charlotte Pipe and Foundry Co.; Rich Davison, Stickler & Assoc.

Department of Safety and Professional Services STAFF:
Lynita Docken, Program Development Bureau; Amanda Berry, Program Development Bureau; Mike Beckwith, Integrated Services Bureau

Welcome and Introductions:
Thomas Boehnen opened the meeting with a round of introductions. 

Period of Public Comment:
Representatives from Kohler presented information to the Council concerning the installation, maintenance, cost, and model variations of waterless urinals.  Docken stated that some manufacturers’ waterless urinals have submitted for and received an alternate approval under Comm 84.  Currently  the trap diameter of waterless urinals that have been submitted for approval does not meet the requirement of a 2-inch trap in Comm 82.30.  The Council recommended  modifying the code in chs. Comm 82 and 84 to include waterless urinals as a code compliant option.

Division Updates:
Lynita Docken updated the members on legislative and Division activity:
•    The Department of Natural Resources and the Office of the Governor is in the process of developing conservation standards to serve as a model for states in the Great Lakes Basin.  The DNR will hold a meeting in the spring to discuss the plan.   Groups interested in participating in the development of the plan should contact Jill Jonas of the DNR. 
•    The Forfeiture Rules are currently at the legislature.  The committees received the draft during the last week of November.
•    The code changes to the building code have been accepted by the legislature.  Included in the building code revisions are requirements for sprinkler systems in three- and four-family buildings after the year 2010.  At that time, the code would permit multipurpose piping systems as an option for these types of occupancies.

Discussion of Code Revision Suggestions for Softener Sizing:
•    Loretta Trapp from the Clack Corporation proposed code changes to Comm 81-84, which would change sizing requirements for softener heads, to the Council for consideration.  The Council recommended the code be revised to permit the use of the conversion table contained in the current alternate approval.

Recommendations for Plumbing Product Code Revisions:
•    Comm 82.40, relating to water supply systems, should be changed to require the rough in of water distribution piping for waterless urinals.
•    Comm 84.20(5)(o)2., relating to water closets, should be changed to allow an exception for prison fixtures to be installed without hinged seats.
•    Mike Beckwith discussed the possible changes to cast iron standards and whether the current code should reflect the 2005 ASTM standards or the 2005 CISPI standards.  He suggested that since Comm 84 references both the ASTM and CISPI, both should be adopted.  The ???????
•    Comm 84.30, Table 84.30-2, relating to underground drain and vent pipe, should be changed to remove concrete as an acceptable material.
•    Table 84.10, Submittals to Department, should be changed to delete the requirements for the submission of exterior grease interceptors for product review.

The next meeting of the Plumbing Advisory Code Council is scheduled for:
Wednesday, January 9, 2008 at 9:00 a.m.
Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center
Third Floor Conference Room #3C
201 West Washington Ave.
Madison, WI

Mike Beckwith is planning to attend the next code council meeting to further discuss plumbing product issues and adopted standard updates.  He will order A112.19.19, relating to the standards for waterless urinals, for the committee to review.

If you have any questions, please contact Lynita Docken at (608) 785-9349 or email at lynita.docken@wisconsin.gov.

October 24, 2007, Thompson Commerce Center, Madison, Wisconsin

Attending: Tom Cottreau, Hal Jenkins, Richard Husar, Pat Casey, Gene Shumann, Rudolf Petrowitsch, Joe Zoulek, Tom Boehnen, Don Oremus, Lynita Docken, Jim Miller

The meeting was called to order by Tom Boehnen at 9:08 a.m. 

There was no public comment.

There was discussion on the law in Minnesota that took effect on January 1, 2007 outlawing air admittance valves and waterless urinals. 

Correction: Meeting of September 24, the meeting was called to order at noon, not 9:10 am. 

Department Update
Update on Air Admittacnce Valves.  Went to American Society of Sanitation Engineers meeting and contributed to suggested changes to the standard.  The department is going to a specific site on October 29, to test the AAV’s to see if there are concerns with the existing devices.   The tests will be filmed. 

S&B is still working on documentation regarding the usage of AAV’s in Wisconsin.      

Lynita attended a  World Environmental Federation Technical Exhibition and Conference that discussed  climate change, water resources, grease interceptors, etc. 

A PowerPoint that was used at the recent plumbing inspectors meeting was shared with the committee.   The inspectors were asked if they were on the code committee, how they would respond to the questions. 

S&B is setting up appointments to interview candidates for the Lacrosse plan review position.  We continue to be more behind on next available appointment than we wish.  The reviewers are on overtime again.

Mike Beckwith is retiring in February of 08.  S&B has been given approval to hire someone before he leaves so Mike can train them.

S&B is continuing to work on the adoption of the tracer wire and administrative forfeiture rules.  Possible adoption may be in the beginning of 2008.  

A motion was made by Gene Shuman that plan reviewers and plumbing consultants should be paid an average union wage that is currently received by a licensed Journeyman plumber.  Motion was seconded by Rudy P.  Vote was taken and it was unanimously passed.  

The committee asked that they be involved in the development of what is considered in conflict of interest. 

The committee then discussed the issues as listed in the “proposed drain and vent code changes”. 

Next meetings are: December 5, January 9  and February 6 .   Start time is 9 a.m., and will conclude at 2:30 pm. 

The meeting was concluded at 2:30.

Tuesday, June 20, 2007, Thompson Commerce Center, Madison, Wisconsin

Members: Biesek, Arthur / League of Wisconsin Municipalities - A; Boehnen, Thomas / American Society of Plumbing Engineers – Wisconsin - Chair - P; Casey, Patrick / Wisconsin AFL-CIO - P; Jenkins, Hal / City of Milwaukee - P; Jones, Dave / Technical Advisor - P; Kowalke, Gary / PHCC/MPA Wisconsin - A; Kuhn, Jeff / Plumbing, Mechanical and Sheet Metal Contractors Alliance - P; Petrowitsch, Rudolf / Society of Sanitary Engineers, Wisconsin Chapter - P; Shumann, Gene / Shumann and Assoc. - P; Viola, David / Plbg. Manufacturers Institute - A; Zoulek, Joseph / Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors - A.

Department of Commerce, Safety and Buildings Division Staff: Beckwith, Mike; Docken, Lynita; Miller, Jim; Oremus, Don; Delfosse, Herman; Zickert, Jim.

Alternates and Guests: Davison, Rich / Watts Regulator; Husar, Richard / City of Milwaukee; Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility.
P/A/Ex/Alt = present, absent, excused, sent alternate.

The meeting was called to order by Tom Boehnen, chair, at 9:03 am.

Public Comment Period: There was no public comment.

- Commerce Update –
Rule package for forfeiture and tracer wire is in the secretaries’ office.  Copies of this document will be given to the members.

Update was given on filling the general plumbing consultant and general plumbing plan reviewer.

- Discussed the definition of plumbing regarding storm systems.  Hydraulically connected to a building through a 100 year storm it would be one definition.  Pat brought up the idea of having a license exemption to allow landscapers to put in culverts, but it is considered plumbing.  Jeff B. stated that the law should reflect what we are doing which would mean to change the code to reflect the fact that storm inlets on property without buildings would be considered plumbing.

- Discussed the recent news of a contaminated well in Door County. 

- Discussed use of air admittance valves.  There are 3 options:  To rescind approval, list them as experimental or add conditions to the current approval.  The committee was asked to send Don Oremus any information they have regarding valve use (failure or proper operation) by July 20.  With this information S&B will make a decision on how these products will be regulated within Wisconsin.

- Discussed Bio Safety Labs.  Next meeting of the BSL safety group is July 10 at the AEI Company office to go over the installation/construction concerns. 

- Discussed proposed code changes including backflow protection definitions and methods. 

- It was decided that the department will gather information on the idea of requiring containment for specific buildings as currently required by American Water Work Association. 

The committee meeting ended at 2:20 p.m.  The next meetings are scheduled to be held on August 15 and October 17. [This summary is subject to approval at a future meeting of the council.]

Tuesday, February 27, 2007, Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center - Madison,

Attendees: Biesek, Arthur / League of Wisconsin Municipalities - P; Boehnen, Thomas / Amer. Society of Plumbing Engineers - P; Casey, Patrick / AFL-CIO - P; Jenkins, Hal / City of Milwaukee - P; Jones, Dave /  - P; Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors - A; Kuhn, Jeff / Plbg., Mech., and Sheet Metal Contractors - P; Petrowitsch, Rudolf / Amer. Society of Sanitary Engineers - P; Shumann, Gene / Shumann & Assoc. - P; Viola, David / Plbg. Manufacturers Institute - A; Zoulek, Joseph / PHCC - P.

Safety and Buildings Division Staff: Docken, Lynita; Kaminski, Roman; Miller, Jim; Oremus, Don; BeckWisconsinth, Mike

Vistors: Tom Couttreau/City of Milwaukee; David Daniels/Radon Specialists of Wisconsin; Bill Woehlke/AB&I Foundtry; Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility; Husar, Richard / City of Milwaukee; Thomas, Alan / Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute; Piskula, Jim / Badgerland Trading Co;     Gregg Carr/ AB & I Foundry; Joe Herkowski/ Herkowski Sales; Jason Schnell /LGD/ASPE; Gary Duren /Code Compliance, Inc; Bob Harley/ National Survey & Engineering; Tim Elverman /Local 75; Jim Piskula, /Badgerland Trading; Tom Beckey, Oatey Co; Mathew Marciniak /IAPMO; Jeff Beiriger / Cook and Franke.

1. The meeting was called to order by Tom Boehnen, chair. at 9:15 am.

2. Public Comment Period
Tom Heine, Radon Scientist provided information to the code council on concerns about the requirements in the plumbing code for venting clearwater sumps that serve as a receptor for foundation drainage and also serve as a vessel for radon elimination from buildings.  Tom Boehnen asked the radon group to work with department staff to develop recommendations for code revisions to the council at a future meeting.

It was requested by Joe Stein that we start a separate committee to start working on them now as there are many being done in the Madison area.  We asked committee and they agreed to the concept.  Volunteers included Gene Shumann, Joe Stein, and Pat Casey.

Bill Wilke talked about cast iron pipe material requirements in the code.  He and others are attempting to meet current CISPI and ASTM standards.   He stated what current standards require to be met for cast iron.  He is stating that Wisconsin Plumbing Code standards need to be updated to recognize new construction methods.  Wisconsin is allowing "sub-standard" materials to be used as we have not updated the newest standard.  2007 standard is in publication right now.  Mike Beckwith stated that we need to update them and that we have a plan to do so.  If we need input on the new standard we can contact the cast iron industry individuals attending the meeting for assistance.  The new standard includes standards for labeling in more detail so it can be determined which foundry made it and also requires testing of raw materials and finished product for radiation.

3. Tom Boehnen. asked for review and a motion to accept the progress report from the December meeting.  The motion was made by Pat Casey and seconded by Rudy Petrowitsch 

4. Commerce Update
Lynita Docken reported that long time employee of Safety and Buildings, Jim Wehinger, passed away this month and will be greatly missed by the Department and the cross connection control industry.

The draft of direct forfeiture is ready.  It was handed out.  We want to table discussion on this matter until other subjects are gone over by people who are in attendance at today’s meeting.

Tracer wire requirements have been requested to be included in the code change and possibly an emergency rule to address the how’s and why’s of installation.  Tom Couttreau. said there was a meeting with digger’s hotline and the installation methods of this seems to be very confusing.  A meeting was set up for this Friday to discuss options and suggestions.

Don Oremus gave an update on the Hepvo valve.  A waterless trap, it was installed in his house for two months.  Looking at possible experimental installation in the Madison area.  We can put a number of conditions on it if necessary.  Don Oremus passed out some handouts on World Health Association.  Gary Duran talked about its use.  He represents this product.  They applied for an alternate, but due to recent conversations with the department, the request is now experimental.  After a number of months of use, they will come back to the council with the results.  Rudy asked about grease usage with this product.  Don O. said they are careful about use of grease in their home while he used it.  Gary said there have been modifications made since Don has used this in his house.

Jim Miller talked about web scheduling and getting plans done.  Also that training is completed tomorrow.

Tom Boehnen. brought up air admittance valves.  Don Oremus brought up information on them at the last meeting.  Discussion was to continue.

5. Air Admittance Valve Discussion
Don Oremus reported that there may be concern with positive or negative pressures in the room as compared with exterior atmospheric pressures.

Randy Dahmen, Safety and Buildings commercial building plan reviewer and HVAC specialist, talked about pressure differentials in buildings.  He stated that the home furnace has a static pressure of positive one-quarter inch.  This is the standard positive pressure.  Buildings may be under negative pressure because of exhaust fans and there is not enough make up air to compensate.  Some buildings should be under negative pressure.  A garage for example, and then are there buildings that should carry a positive pressure.  How much negative or positive pressure should be in a building?  Dahmen stated that it’s best to have a positive pressure. 

Question was asked on what the exact issue was.  Boehnen questioned if there are enough concerns over the use of AAV to not include them in the code draft, or should we keep them as an alternate.  Docken talked about hospital staff had concerns on pressure differences in health care.   The pressure in a small room could be the same as in the duct work.  Two-inch difference on the outlet of the trap, or 4 inches on the inlet the water could go up the inlet of the drain. 

Jim Piscula talked about documented failures that they have on record.  He checked since the last meeting, and in 2006 they had a return of 30 to 40 valves to Studor.  There was about 30,000 valves sold in 2006 in Wisconsin.  Then he tested the ones that were returned to Studor and 99 percent of the these tested fine.  He stated it did not make a major difference whether or not they keep them in the code or as an alternate. 

Dahmen came back to talk about a small room, could it be under the same amount of pressure in the small room as it is in the ductwork?  Randy said that the supply needs to be approximately the same as the exhaust.  Gary asked if one-quarter inch pressure differential is a lot.  Randy said, “No, it can vary”.

Talked about static negative pressure, the question was asked how long the valve has been tested under negative pressure.  Beckwith said he believed it was for 10 minutes  It was asked what would happen if the valve was under negative pressure for an extended period of time (24) hours?  They did not know.  Then we looked at a positive pressure difference.  The valve will open open at .3.   Have the valves been tested under continuous positive pressure?  They said they have not.   Room condition could get to .3 in the room, both negative and positive.  Will the valve work if it has been open for 6 months? Will it work after these pressures are taken off?   Piskula. said that the valve seat goes up and down a little each time the valve is used.  If it is kept open, will dust accumulate in the seat?

Dahmen. said under diverse occupancies it could be subject to higher pressures.   It is all relative depending on the type of building.  Will the valve open sooner than .3, if so, what is the valve actually opening up at?  Tom Beckey said Oatey opens between .2 and .3.   Beckey also said there is no sewer gas in either positive or negative pressure case.  They said there should be no gurgle complaints.  Oremus. stated that after two years, his valve stayed shut because of suds, he thinks.  Oatey has been selling since them since 1998 and has not noticed any problems.  Oremus. said that because he is a plumber he noted that the drain was flowing slower.  If there is a clog downstream, Beckey stated they should take the valve off and put a plastic bag on the opening and note if it expands or is sucked in when water is discharged into it.  If it expands, it is because of a clogged drain. 

Shumann asked if we approve the waterless trap, do we need an air admittance valve?  They are not approved for any building that has a continuous pressure for more than 12 hours.  Should we address what the positive pressure should be instead of just saying a “positive” pressure in our approval, the answer is “yes”.  How much should we allow?  Should we allow all, or not define it at all. 

The code committee wants to know if they should be codified with buildings that have both negative and positive pressures.  Can suds come up the sink drain when the valve is stuck open?

Beckey said water would not go down the drain if the building is under negative pressure.  But, if you put enough water down the drain, the valve would open.  The question is, is it equivalent to an open vent?

Boehnen asked if any other issues needed to be brought up.  Zoulek talked about hot water, and an AAV was being used on a grease interceptor installation and the condensate locked the seat in place and he had to slam it to get it going again.  When does the surface tension lock the gasket in place.  It was asked by Boehnen if a vacuum test was done to see when the AAV would open.   Zoulek did not do a pressure test.  There has been a test conducted in the standard it is approved under to freeze the AAV and it still had to work.  Beckey said you could not build up water on the valve.  The valve was put on a 3-inch vent on top of the roof. 

Boehnen said we are at a point where we need to decide on recommendation on the AAV.  Are we going to proceed with putting it in the code, or stay status quo?  He did not hear of any health related problems.  Docken reminded that options include everything from pulling it to writing it in the code.   Shumann asked Beckey about numbers of failures in Wisconsin.  Beckey stated he is not the rep and does not know the numbers in Wisconsin.  Beckey said they have more than 5 million in the field, they are ISO approved and have a database for failures.  He thinks there have been 18 returned, and when they tested them many of the 18 worked.  Beckey said the southeast is where most of the valves are being installed.  Minnesota is where the valves are not allowed.  Beckey is not aware of when or if that state will approve it. 

Jim Peters stated that they are doing a private survey done by health dept personnel, as to what contaminants are in sewer gas and what levels of it would effect someone.  The valve was approved for two months but the approval was pulled.  Minnesota does not require a license in cities over 5000 to install plumbing.  Michigan approved the AAV prior to Wisconsin. 

Couttreau stated he thinks it is fine now, and not a good idea to codify it.  He cannot buy into the process of allowing it by rule.  He thinks there are too many things that change over time. 

Couttreau made a motion to leave the AAV as an alternate approval for anther 5-year period.  Rudy seconded the motion.  Docken said we cannot leave it in the approval that they cannot be used under a positive pressure situation.  This would have to be changed if we leave it as is.  Alternate says subject to a positive pressure for more than 12 continuous hours.   Boehnen says he does not want to go over this all again in 5 years, he thinks we should just keep it at 5-year terms.

Motion passed.  It was recommended to keep it as an alternate. 

Oremus discussed a questionnaire for the plumbing industry which would document when the AAV fail.  The form includes plumber’s name, license number, if you installed it with a test, any consumer complaints, etc.  Jim P. said we could take it one step further to ask if the product could be evaluated by the manufacturer to see if it is really working or not.  Piskula stated any time there is a bad valve, they get it.  He said he will give us this information.  Shumann stated that they should send them two valves for each one they sent in that they think is bad.  Piskula said they would consider this.  Beckey said the same that they would be willing to test the valves that we are getting to see if they are working or not.  He thanked the committee for listening to him today. 

6. Administrative Forfeiture
Docken presented handout on administrative forfeiture.  This is for anything in 145.06.  

Oremus. thinks the fee is too low for the first offense. 

Elverman, stated he worked on this legislation to get it through.  He stated the legislators did not want the fine more than $2000. He thinks a $100 fine is not enough to make anyone pay attention.  Boehnen asked about item 2, in the design profession, they are having a difficult time finding qualified people to do the work.  Does plumbing have the same problem in finding people to be plumbers?  Casey said there are apprentices who are ready to go to work, but there are not enough of JP to do the work. 

Elverman said that as we gave the authority to state inspectors, the discretion ability would be tough to determine what to charge.  However, he thinks there would be fewer appeals if the price was set.  If fines were not set, people would appeal why they got the $500 fine versus the $1000 fine. 

These rules do not affect the Utility Contractor.  Can we write a rule that would fine them? 

Fee amounts were changed in the draft.  Lynita has these changes in her draft.

There is no statute of limitations regarding the time period between violations. 

7. Code Changes Discussion
In 82.21, the council discussed existing systems language.   Does a yard hydrant, that was installed back when we allowed them to be served by an 9d and hose connection vacuum breaker need to be brought up to current rules?  The department currently allows it to remain if the installation was done when the code allowed it. This is similar to dental units which we allowed a ASSE 1012 at one time.  How does the inspector know if the installation was done when the code allowed it?  Should there be dates installed in the rule stating when rules changed as noted above so we know when the inspector can require them to update it? 

Petrowitsch wants to know why we change the code if there is no good reason to say what was legal before could not be proven to be bad. 

Jeff Beiriger spoke about the tracer wire law.  He is a lobbyist that was involved in drafting this legislation.  He stated that at this point that there is no clear rule on how it should be done.  They did not want separate rules written in each municipality stating how it should be done.  The challenge is to get some uniformity on how these rules should be enforced.  He wants any interested parties to show up and give their knowledge to how this should be done.  The questions he raised are:

What is gauge of  & composition of it.
Q)  What should the color be for the wire, (blue for sanitary and red for water)
Q)  What about coating of wire
Q ) What about splices.  They should be waterproof, wire nuts are not acceptable
Q)  Does the tracer need to be attached, above it, below it, etc.
Q)  Where should it be terminated, curb, property line, where?  Outside of the building,
Q)  Should the system be tested? 
Q)  If it is not installed, who writes the orders and who is responsible to put it in. 

Meeting concluded at 2:40pm. 
[These minutes are subject to approval at a future meeting of the Council.]

Tuesday, December 19, 2006, Thompson Commerce Center, Madison, Wisconsin
Attendees: Biesek, Arthur / League of Wisconsin Municipalities - P; Boehnen, Thomas / American Society of Plumbing Engineers - Wisconsins - P; Casey, Patrick / Wisconsin State AFL-CIO - P; Jenkins, Hal / City of Milwaukee - P; Jones Dave; Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors Milwaukee Plumbing Association - Wisconsin - A; Kuhn, Jeff / Plumbing Mechanical Sheet Metal Contractors Alliance - P; Petrowitsch, Rudolf / American Society of Sanitary Engineers - Wisconsin - P; Shumann, Gene / Shumann and Associates - P; Viola, David / Plumbing Manufacturers Institute - A; Zoulek, Joseph Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors Milwaukee Plumbing Association - Wisconsin - P. 

P/A/Ex/Alt = present, absent, excused, sent alternate.

Alternates and Guests: Bolt, Jeff / Wisconsin Healthcare Engineers; Fulkerson, James / Wisconsin Healthcare Engineers; Otter, Marcella / UW Madison; Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility; Husar, Richard / City of Milwaukee; Thomas, Alan / Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute; Piskula, Jim / Badgerland Trading Company; Pagel, Darin / Northlands UDC Inspector.

S&B staff: Docken, Lynita / Program Manager - Plumbing / Pools; Kaminski, Roman / Program Manager - Powts; Miller, Jim / Plumbing Section Chief; Oremus, Don / Plumbing Consultant; Beckwith, Mike / Product Reviewer.

1.  Welcome, Introductions and Announcements:  Meeting was called to order at 9:05 a.m.  Boehnen welcomed the members and asked that everyone introduce themselves. 

2.  Public Input:  Two statements were made.  a.  Support was offered for the Affidavit of Testing? concept that was to be discussed by council members.  Flexibility for rural inspectors is needed due to size of territory covered and need for timely inspections.  b.  Concern was offered about disposal of chemicals into plumbing systems.  Federal Environmental Protection Agency and Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources are beginning to work on this issue.  How hospitals are required to handle and dispose of chemicals was used as an example of the complexity of this issue.

3.  Commerce / Agency Update:  Miller and Docken provided the Commerce update.  Miller discussed the stop work/stop use process being implemented by the department.  He also discussed plan review workload issues and the web-based application process being implemented.  Docken discussed multi-purpose piping as related to the 2006 IBC.  She also mentioned that the storm code? will be effective 04/01/07 and that the four-year license is drawing attention from some that are attempting to budget based on the new fee structure.

4.  Progress Report Approval:  The previous meeting summary was approved with one minor revision.

5.  Code Revision Suggestion List Review:  The suggestion list with rankings developed by council members was distributed.  The top ranked issues will be reviewed at a future council meeting.

6.  Affidavit of Testing:  Council members agreed that the concept had merit and that a code revision should be made to allow for use of an affidavit under certain conditions. 
   
6.  Air Admittance Valves:  Don Oremus provided a handout and presented background information on valve performance.  Jim Piskula provided a handout and stated support for revising the code to allow the valves without the need for an alternate product approval.  Council members chose to table further discussion on this issue until a future meeting. 

7. Issue List Discussion:  Council members discussed several issues related to categories of license needed to perform various tasks.  Discussion centered on what work a Restricted Appliance plumber could perform.  Other discussion focused on whether there is a need or desire to add specialty categories to the Master Plumber license.  Docken was given an assignment to research Pass/Fail rates for the master plumber exams.

8.  Next Meeting, Agenda and Assignments:  The next meeting is scheduled for February 27, 2007.  Agenda will include further review of the issue list and report out of assignments.   [Future meeting date – April 18, 2007.]

7.  Adjournment:  The meeting adjourned at 2:30 p.m.

Joint Meeting Plumbing Advisory Code Council (PACC) and PACC Stormwater Workgroup Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 9 am 2:30 pm Thompson Commerce Center, Room 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison Wisconsin / / This summary is subject to approval at a future council meeting.

Joint Meeting Plumbing Advisory Code Council (PACC) and PACC Stormwater Workgroup, December 18, 2003, 9 am - 2:30 pm, Thompson Commerce Center, Room 3B, 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison

Plumbing Council Attendees: Member Name / Representing
P = present; A = absent; Ex = excused, notified staff as being unable to attend; Alt. = alternate sent.
Biesek, Art / League of Wisconsin Municipalities P
Boehnen, Thomas Ex
Davis, Jim / Technical Advisor Ex
Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Contractors A
Krowski, Mark / City of Milwaukee Ex
Kuhn, Jeff / Plbg. & Mech. Heating Contractors P
Macejkovic, Steve / Technical Advisor EX
McCullough, Clint / Plumbing Contractors EX
Newirth, Alex / AFL-CIO Plumbers / Labor ALT
Petrowitsch, Rudy / ASSE EX
Schlieve, Dale / Wisconsin Soc. of Prof. Designers P
Shumann, Gene P
Viola, Dave / PMI A
Zoulek, Joe / PHCC & MPA of Wisconsin P

Stormwater Workgroup:
Mazen M. Amer A
Tom C. Cottreau EX
Wisconsinllie Gonwa A
Dan Jensen EX
Bob Pups EX
Mary Ann Lowndes A
Jim Wolf P

Guests:
Luedeke, Jim / Wausau Concrete P
Boldt, Jeff / WHEA P
Fulkerson, James / WHEA P
Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility P

Staff:
Docken, Lynita P
MacCubbin, Jean P
Miller, Jim P
Stanlick, Harold P
Mike Beckwith P
Glen Jones A
Lenny Kanter P
Dan Kraft P
Jim Zickert P

1. Welcome, Introductions, Announcements and Review of Agenda: In the absence of the chair Tom Boehnen, Joe Zoulek opened the meeting at 9:10 a.m.; there were no announced changes to the agenda. Self-introductions of attendees were made at this time.

2. Period for Public Comment: Joe Stein from the Madison Water Utility brought up a number of items for future code revision consideration. He noted that they are seeing a number of new labs where containment would be needed; these labs are usually ones where various research is being undertaken Wisconsinth regard to bio-hazards and grants under homeland security or NIH requirements. Most have toxic environments and are multiple labs, being in suites for example as at the new UW Veterinary Medicine Bldg. Discussion followed and Docken summarized that these issues could be considered for the next "code fix-up package " planned for after the stormwater rules become effective.

A second issue Stein brought up was the handling of the chemical feed on specific boilers. He proposed some changes for s. Comm 82.41; discussion followed and this too would be saved for the next rule revision package.

Shumann brought up the issue regarding the lengthy Appendix in ch. Comm 82 and asked if members would like to see it smaller, larger or done away with altogether. Most agreed that some of the sketches needed updating to be more informative and specific to the code section. Most felt that they routinely refer people with questions to specific sections of the Appendix. One drawback mentioned was that since only a few options are listed as sketches, some users feel that other options are not allowed; this needs to be made clear.

Wisc. Health Care Engineers, would like to see the council revisit the domestic hot water issues for healthcare facilities, particularly with regard to chlorination systems and the temperature of 140 degree F. being possibly too high.

3. Approval of Progress Report of 10/08/03: MOTION by Shumann / Biesek to accept the progress report as distributed. Passed unanimously. Zickert noted that s. Comm 82.36 (9) notes a 4-inch sphere; the staff team has since recommended a 6-inch sphere. The progress report will so note this more recent recommendation.

4. Commerce Update:Docken provided the folloWisconsinng reports.

a) Advance Plumbing Credential. Marge Wood of Wisconsin Technical College Systems was in attendance to give an update on the most recent recommendations with regard to post-apprenticeship education and certificate. Briefly, she noted that the idea came from a desire to promote the trade, elevate the industry and career path as well as promote life-long learning. It is just another mechanism to institutionalize continuing education. The certificate upon completion, in any of the 6 tracks would be issued by Dept. of Workforce Development. Incentives should be given to complete the courses, such as opting out of some testing for the MP exam. There is some statutory language with regard to MP 'test' and the two departments are looking at ways to either change or interpret this rule.

Questions and answers followed:
- How will the course be offered? Both online and classroom.
- What if any tie in to BS or AS degree? It is planned that one could get an AS in addition to the certificate.
- What are the tracks? Business, mechanical and environmental.
- How will the apprentice instructors be notified? Most already are aware of the plan; some will be teaching the courses.
- Will any other state recognize the classes or the certificate? Yes, the group did an evaluation of neighboring states and it appears that these courses would apply there as well.
- Is the test for MP the same if someone obtained this certificate? It is planned that perhaps portions of the MP exam may be waived; this is still being worked out.
- What are other benefits to such certificate? The MP could expand their knowledge so they can move from shop to shop or expand business.
- Could these courses count toward continuing education? Yes, this could be as early as this spring.

b) Apprentice Fair. Docken reported that she has been working with Randy Lorge, tech school instructor, on the idea of having an Apprentice Fair this spring. One possibly would be that a class could be a field trip for hands-on learning opportunities; soil infiltration, friction loss, stormwater and new products were ideas floated.

c) Comm 83 code changes. Docken reported that some fix ups to this POWTS chapter will become effective 2/1/04 and Wisconsinll affect upcoming continuing education and training.

d) Comm 5 rule revision. Docken reported that this rule revision package has been sent to the Legislature to be assigned to committees. The rule revisions include the continuing education requirements for sprinkler fitters; grandfathering clause for commercial plumbing inspector license within a one-year window.

e) Training for state staff. Docken reported that there will be stormwater sizing, stormwater modeling and enforcement training for state staff in March.

f) State law re: one- and 2-family inspections. Docken reported that this bill became law for both construction and plumbing inspection in municipalities of less than 2,500 population. She gave an overview of how municipalities could opt out and the county previously could do that work; that option is not longer available and the state plans to contract with inspection agencies and all municipalities would not need to be involved. A question was asked if this included just new construction or additions/remodels as well. Staff will check on this and so communicate.

g) Witer training. Staff are involved in an aggressive training schedule, Miller reported. So far, many of the classes have been well-attended.

h) Field operations. Stanlick noted that Jim Wehinger is now back to work and that most field staff are involved in the winter training.

i) SB 145 pump installers. A question was asked on the status of the proposal regarding (licensing of) pump installers. Docken believed that the bill may be dead as written; she heard that the WDNR did not support it in it's current form.

5. Preliminary Public Hearing Draft, ss. Comm 82.35- 82.365. An updated draft of the public hearing draft was circulated and Docken reported that the three umbrella councils (UDC, MFDCC and CBCC) had reviewed it and gave their 'go ahead' to submit for public hearing (although no formal votes were taken at each meeting). She then proceeded to go through the items that were presented to those groups with an accompanied PowerPoint presentation. She noted that the plan is to have the draft effective well before the October 1, 2004 date of the one acre or less rule.

Questions were asked about how this rule would effect municipalities that already have rules in place, like Milwaukee, for example. Docken felt that staff will learn more about these circumstances during the upcoming training sessions on stormwater; most municipalities, she thought, did not have rules regarding the plumbing option of stormwater. Also asked was how to handle the plumbing portion? Docken noted that ch. NR 151 is a minimum standard and would apply on sites where EPA rules are required.

Table 2.64-1 piping. The change provides for plan review fees for stormwater connected to a building based on piping. It was noted that another amendment should be made for clearwater drain systems.

Tables 82.20-1 and -2. Changes were made to outline when submittals are required for stormwater and clearwater drain systems by the depart and agents, or agents with permission from the department.

s. Comm 82.36(3) Design. Three requirements are listed, Docken noted: the 100 year storm event and a sketch was drafted for clarification; the 10 year event and training will show how to read rainfall rate.

Table 82.70-1. Change was made so that reuse would not be allowed for food crops.

s. Comm 82.36 (5) flow rate calculations. Docken noted that the volume calculation would be based on the 2 year, 2-hour and 100 year, 2-hour as per WDNR. March training on SLAMM would be helpful here.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) All tables have been updated based on pitch, diameter and gpm.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) (c). The Infiltration workgroup changed this to be the 24-hour storm event.

s. Comm 82.36 (7) (d) 6. Six inches of storage would be allowed in parking lots.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (b) 3. A lengthy discussion took place with regard to inlets and grates. Docken focused on ADA requirements with Neenah Foundry and the Milwaukee code; now both allow the passage of a 6-inch sphere like the building code. A sketch drafted for use in the Appendix was discussed and it was noted that it was confusing since the grate is not horizontal, on a walking surface and appeared to depict the pipe apron Wisconsinth a grate. Docken will update the sketch for use in the Appendix.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (e) 3. A. A question was asked about the adoption of ANSI A117.95 (1998) as in the building code vs. references to ADA.

s. Comm 82.36 (13)(b) Sump venting. Discussion followed on whether a solid cover required venting. Since Clearwater traps are vented, sumps can have airtight covers.

s. Comm 82.36 (13) Operation and maintenance plans. Docken circulated a copy of a plan she obtained from a stormwater submittal; a similar one-page plan would be submitted for such a stormwater drain system.

s. Comm 82.365 Infiltration for stormwater and clear water. Docken noted that most of the investigative information gathered would be based on ch. Comm 85 soil evaluation. Discussion followed on the 3 foot and 5 foot separation distances as well as the ratings for the most restrictive layer of soil. It was decided to revise Table 82.36-1 and -2 to reflect the format in Table 83.44 that CSTs are familiar with using.

Theses were all of the items that Docken presented to the Umbrella Councils; members were then asked if there were items they still needed to discuss.

s. Comm 84.20 (5)(p) 1. Staff Wisconsinll check if ASME valve worked for only ASME approved vessel.

Zoulek then asked members if they were ready to move the package to public hearing and if so, a motion would be in order. MOTION by Kuhn / Biesek that the Council agreed to go to public hearing. Passed.

It was then asked when staff thought that date would be. Docken noted that Bob DuPont would be reviewing the draft over the holidays and MacCubbin estimated that possibly mid-March for a public hearing date.

6. Next Meeting(s) and Proposed Agenda: No future meetings were set. A meeting would be convened after comments from the public hearing are received.

MacCubbin queried the members in attendance about their desire on how they would like to receive the agenda and progress reports in the future. The rules are as follows: Most had access to web; about half wanted the e-mail and hard copies (as how they receive this information now); the other half wanted hard copies.

7. Adjournment: The meeting adjourned on a motion by Kuhn / Shumann at 2 p.m.

Submitted by: Jean MacCubbin, Code Consultant to the Council. [This progress was approved at the 06/22/04 Council meeting.]

Joint Meeting Plumbing Advisory Code Council (PACC) and PACC Stormwater Workgroup

Wednesday, October 8, 2003, 9:00 am - 2:30 pm, Thompson Commerce Center, Rm 3B, 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison

Member Name / Representing P/A
Biesek, Art / League of Wisconsin Municipalities P
Boehnen, Thomas Ex
Davis, Jim / Technical Advisor Ex
Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Contractors A
Krowski, Mark / City of Milwaukee Ex
Kuhn, Jeff / Plbg. & Mech. Heating Contractors P
Macejkovic, Steve / Technical Advisor EX
McCullough, Clint / Plumbing Contractors EX
Newirth, Alex / AFL-CIO Plumbers / Labor ALT
Petrowitsch, Rudy / ASSE EX
Schlieve, Dale / Wisconsin Soc. of Prof. Designers P
Shumann, Gene P
Viola, Dave / PMI A
Zoulek, Joe / PHCC & MPA of Wisconsin P

Guests
Luedeke, Jim / Wausau Concrete P
Boldt, Jeff / WHEA P
Fulkerson, James / WHEA P
Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility P
Pody, Louie (alt. Local 75)
Wood, Marge / WTSC P

Stormwater Workgroup
Bob Pups EX
Mazen M. Amer A Tom C. Cottreau EX
Wisconsinllie Gonwa A
Dan Jensen EX
Mary Ann Lowndes A
Jim Wolf P

Staff P/A
Docken, Lynita P
MacCubbin, Jean P
Miller, Jim P
Stanlick, Harold P
Mike Beckwith P
Glen Jones A
Lenny Kanter P
Dan Kraft P
Jim Zickert P

P = present; A = absent; Ex = excused, notified staff as being unable to attend; Alt. = alternate sent.

1. Welcome, Introductions, Announcements and Review of Agenda: In the absence of the chair Tom Boehnen, Joe Zoulek opened the meeting at 9:10 a.m.; there were no announced changes to the agenda. Self-introductions of attendees were made at this time.

2. Period for Public Comment: Joe Stein from the Madison Water Utility brought up a number of items for future code revision consideration. He noted that they are seeing a number of new labs where containment would be needed; these labs are usually ones where various research is being undertaken Wisconsinth regard to bio-hazards and grants under homeland security or NIH requirements. Most have toxic environments and are multiple labs, being in suites for example as at the new UW Veterinary Medicine Bldg. Discussion followed and Docken summarized that these issues could be considered for the next "code fix-up package " planned for after the stormwater rules become effective.

A second issue Stein brought up was the handling of the chemical feed on specific boilers. He proposed some changes for s. Comm 82.41; discussion followed and this too would be saved for the next rule revision package.

Shumann brought up the issue regarding the lengthy Appendix in ch. Comm 82 and asked if members would like to see it smaller, larger or done away with altogether. Most agreed that some of the sketches needed updating to be more informative and specific to the code section. Most felt that they routinely refer people with questions to specific sections of the Appendix. One drawback mentioned was that since only a few options are listed as sketches, some users feel that other options are not allowed; this needs to be made clear.

WHEA, Wisconsin. Health Care Engineers, would like to see the council revisit the domestic hot water issues for healthcare facilities, particularly with regard to chlorination systems and the temperature of 140 degree F. being possibly too high.

3. Approval of Progress Report of 10/08/03: MOTION by Shumann / Biesek to accept the progress report as distributed. assed unanimously. Zickert noted that s. Comm 82.36 (9) notes a 4-inch sphere; the staff team has since recommended a 6-inch sphere. The progress report winll so note this more recent recommendation.

4. Commerce Update: Docken provided the following reports.

a) Advance Plumbing Credential. Marge Wood of Wisconsin. Technical College Systems was in attendance to give an update on the most recent recommendations with regard to post-apprenticeship education and certificate. Briefly, she noted that the idea came from a desire to promote the trade, elevate the industry and career path as well as promote life-long learning. It is just another mechanism to institutionalize continuing education. The certificate upon completion, in any of the 6 tracks would be issued by DWD, Dept. of Workforce Development. Incentives should be given to complete the courses, such as opting out of some testing for the MP exam. There is some statutory language with regard to MP 'test' and the two departments are looking at ways to either change or interpret this rule.

Questions and answers followed:

How Wisconsinll the course be offered? Both on-line and classroom.

What if any tie in to BS or AS degree? It is planed that one could get an AS in addition to the certificate.

What are the tracks? Business, mechanical and environmental.

How winll the apprentice instructors be notified? Most already are aware of the plan; some Wisconsinll be teaching the courses.

Will any other state recognize the classes or the certificate? Yes, the group did an evaluation of neighboring states and it appears that these courses would apply there as well.

Is the test for MP the same if someone obtained this certificate? It is planned that perhaps portions of the MP exam may be waived; this is still being worked out.

What are other benefits to such certificate? The MP could expand their knowledge so they can move from shop to shop or expand business.

Could these courses count toward continuing education? Yes, this could be as early as this spring.

b) Apprentice Fair. Docken reported that she has been working Wisconsinth Randy Lorge, tech school instructor, on the idea of having an Apprentice Fair this spring. One possibly would be that a class could be a field trip for hands-on learning opportunities; soil infiltration, friction loss, stormwater and new products were ideas floated.

c) Comm 83 code changes. Docken reported that some fix ups to this POWTS chapter will become effective 2/1/04 and will affect upcoming continuing education and training.

d) Comm 5 rule revision. Docken reported that this rule revision package has been sent to the Legislature to be assigned to committees. The rule revisions include the continuing education requirements for sprinkler fitters; grandfathering clause for commercial plumbing inspector license within a one-year Wisconsinndow.

e) Training for state staff. Docken reported that there will be stormwater sizing, stormwater modeling and enforcement training for state staff in March.

f) State law re: one- and 2-family inspections. Docken reported that this bill became law for both construction and plumbing inspection in municipalities of less than 2,500 population. She gave an overview of how municipalities could opt out and the county previously could do that work; that option is not longer available and the state plans to contract with inspection agencies and all municipalities would not need to be involved. A question was asked if this included just new construction or additions/remodels as well. Staff will check on this and so communicate.

g) Winter training. Staff are involved in an aggressive training schedule, Miller reported. So far, many of the classes have been well-attended.

h) Field operations. Stanlick noted that Jim Wehinger is now back to work and that most field staff are involved in the Wisconsinnter training.

i) SB 145 pump installers. A question was asked on the status of the proposal regarding (licensing of) pump installers. Docken believed that the bill may be dead as written; she heard that the WDNR did not support it in it's current form.

5. Preliminary Public Hearing Draft, ss. Comm 82.35- 82.365. An updated draft of the public hearing draft was circulated and Docken reported that the three umbrella councils (UDC, MFDCC and CBCC) had reviewed it and gave their 'go ahead' to submit for public hearing (although no formal votes were taken at each meeting). She then proceeded to go through the items that were presented to those groups Wisconsinth an accompanied PowerPoint presentation. She noted that the plan is to have the draft effective well before the October 1, 2004 date of the one acre or less rule.

Questions were asked about how this rule would effect municipalities that already have rules in place, like Milwaukee, for example. Docken felt that staff will learn more about these circumstances during the upcoming training sessions on stormwater; most municipalities, she thought, did not have rules regarding the plumbing option of stormwater. Also asked was how to handle the plumbing portion? Docken noted that ch. NR 151 is a minimum standard and would apply on sites where EPA rules are required.

Table 2.64-1 piping. The change provides for plan review fees for stormwater connected to a building based on piping. It was noted that another amendment should be made for clearwater drain systems.

Tables 82.20-1 and -2. Changes were made to outline when submittals are required for stormwater and clearwater drain systems by the depart and agents, or agents with permission from the department.

s. Comm 82.36(3) Design. Three requirements are listed, Docken noted: the 100 year storm event and a sketch was drafted for clarification; the 10 year event and training will show how to read rainfall rate.

Table 82.70-1. Change was made so that reuse would not be allowed for food crops.

s. Comm 82.36 (5) flow rate calculations. Docken noted that the volume calculation would be based on the 2 year, 2-hour and 100 year, 2-hour as per WDNR. March training on SLAMM would be helpful here.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) All tables have been updated based on pitch, diameter and gpm.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) (c). The Infiltration workgroup changed this to be the 24-hour storm event.

s. Comm 82.36 (7) (d) 6. Six inches of storage would be allowed in parking lots.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (b) 3. A lengthy discussion took place with regard to inlets and grates. Docken focused on ADA requirements with Neenah Foundry and the Milwaukee code; now both allow the passage of a 6-inch sphere like the building code. A sketch drafted for use in the Appendix was discussed and it was noted that it was confusing since the grate is not horizontal, on a walking surface and appeared to depict the pipe apron with a grate. Docken will update the sketch for use in the Appendix.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (e) 3. A. A question was asked about the adoption of ANSI A117.95 (1998) as in the building code vs. references to ADA.

s. Comm 82.36 (13)(b) Sump venting. Discussion followed on whether a solid cover required venting. Since Clearwater traps are vented, sumps can have airtight covers.

s. Comm 82.36 (13) Operation and maintenance plans. Docken circulated a copy of a plan she obtained from a stormwater submittal; a similar one-page plan would be submitted for such a stormwater drain system.

s. Comm 82.365 Infiltration for stormwater and clear water. Docken noted that most of the investigative information gathered would be based on ch. Comm 85 soil evaluation. Discussion followed on the 3 foot and 5 foot separation distances as well as the ratings for the most restrictive layer of soil. It was decided to revise Table 82.36-1 and -2 to reflect the format in Table 83.44 that CSTs are familiar with using.

Theses were all of the items that Docken presented to the Umbrella Councils; members were then asked if there were items they still needed to discuss.

s. Comm 84.20 (5)(p) 1. Staff will check if ASME valve worked for only ASME approved vessel.

Zoulek then asked members if they were ready to move the package to public hearing and if so, a motion would be in order. MOTION by Kuhn / Biesek that the Council agreed to go to public hearing. Passed.

It was then asked when staff thought that date would be. Docken noted that Bob DuPont would be reviewing the draft over the holidays and MacCubbin estimated that possibly mid-March for a public hearing date.

6. Next Meeting(s) and Proposed Agenda: No future meetings were set. A meeting would be convened after comments from the public hearing are received.

MacCubbin queried the members in attendance about their desire on how they would like to receive the agenda and progress reports in the future. The rules are as follows: Most had access to web; about ½ wanted the e-mail and hard copies (as how they receive this information now); the other ½ wanted hard copies.

7. Adjournment: The meeting adjourned on a motion by Kuhn / Shumann at 2:00 p.m.

Submitted by: Jean MacCubbin, Code Consultant to the Council. [This progress will be the subject of approval at a future Council meeting.]

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